Two ABAP stacks on single HANA appliance in MCOD

[Former Member]

Hello folks,

I have one open question for this great community of experts.

According to SAP note 1661202 - Support for multiple applications on SAP HANA it's possible to install BW on HANA and NW AS Java in MCOD on one HANA.

However, it is not confirmed, if it's supported to install BW on HANA and Netweaver AS ABAP on single node.

I know there's MCOS, but that is not supported for production.

I just talked about this with Andy Silvey and we are both not sure.

Please kindly remark.

Cheers,
Michal

[henrique_pinto · Accepted solution]

Actually, SAP does not differentiate the scenarios technically, but based on the business scenario the application will be used for (which can actually determine the workload with a higher precision than the technical architecture the application is based on).

If you check the same note you've linked, it list several products that are technically based on NW AS ABAP and that can coexist with BW's ABAP stack, namely:

• SAP Customer Activity Repository (CAR)
• SAP Customer Engagement Intelligence (CEI)
• SAP Tax Declaration Framework (TDF)
• SAP Landscape Transformation (SLT)
• SAP Fraud Management (FM)
• etc.

Hence, it is technically possible, even in production, to deploy 2 AS ABAP stacks pointing to the same HANA DB instance (albeit, in separate DB Schemas), given that those applications are included in the white list concomitantly.

Similarly, SAP has released another white list note with the list of HANA applications that can coexist on the same HANA DB as other Business Suite applications (ERP, CRM, etc.). This SOH white list is present in SAP Note 1826100. It includes most of the same apps the standalone white list includes, such as CAR, CEI, FM, TDF, among others. The good thing about this deployment is that, since most of these apps would rely on Business Suite data (mostly ERP & CRM) to run, being deployed on the same HANA DB, they can natively consume logical views on top of the transactional data from the other DB Schema, without requiring a SLT/DS replication (simplification, anyone? ).

So, if you think about it, what ABAP-based products are not authorized to be deployed together? Basically, everything else that was not mentioned in those two notes, most notably:

• Business Suite apps & BW (e.g. two separate ERP & BW instances on the same HANA DB)
  • This is not to be confused with the Embedded BW case, where the BW models reside in the SAP_BW component that exists within the ERP ABAP stack. In this case, since typically the models will be virtual models (i.e. no data acquisition / extractors would be required), the BW workload is considerably lower than in a separate BW instance, allowing it to share the same infrastructure than ERP. BTW, this is the BI architecture that sFIN is leveraging (and that will probably be there for the rest of sERP as well).
• Business Suite apps with other Business Suite apps (e.g. two separate ERP & CRM instances on the same HANA DB).

Specifically to tackle that second point, from Business Suite 7 innovations 2013 onward (ERP 6.0 EHP7+ & CRM/SRM/SCM 7.0 EHP3+, i.e. based on AS ABAP 740+), SAP has introduced the possibility to deploy SRM & SCM* as add-ons to the ERP ABAP stack (of course, this introduces all the complexity of doing shared-infrastructure ALM, i.e. planned maintenance windows must match, unexpected downtimes will impact each other etc.).

Hope that helps.

Best regards,

Henrique.

* I haven't read all the details, but I'd suspect SAP only allows the co-deployment of ERP & SCM for non-APO SCM components, since LiveCache would add a huge deal of complexity to the workload management between the two applications. But that's just a hunch (though, even if allowed by SAP, I wouldn't recommending co-locating ERP & APO together on the same infrastructure, due the heavy workload nature of both applications).

[petr_solberg · Accepted solution]

Hi Henrique and Michal,

Henrique,

thank you for contributing here and going deeper into the compatibilities.

Folks, Henrique's response, that is a HDE answer !

Michal,

Henrique implicitly makes an excellent point, the first question needs to be, what is the Business Scenario/UsageType of the ABAP Stack which you would like to have as  MCOD next to the BW on Hana ?

Great weekend,

Andy.

[lbreddemann · Accepted solution]

Andy Silvey wrote:

Henrique,

thank you for contributing here and going deeper into the compatibilities.

Folks, Henrique's response, that is a HDE answer !   

It's also the answer of an SAP employee that happens to work in SAP HANA product management .

[henrique_pinto · Accepted solution]

Global COE, but yeah, close enough, hehe.

[Former Member · Accepted solution]

Thanks for the detailed answer Henrique.

Based on your response, it seems that I can install SAP BW and SAP NW AS ABAP into one HANA appliance in MCOD.

Customer wants pure NW AS ABAP (with custom development in it) and SAP BW 7.4.  But we have to be 100% sure, it's supported before buying a HANA appliance. Those are not cheap.

Thanks.

Cheers,
Michal

[Former Member · Accepted solution]

And so maybe what custom developed NW AS ABAP app must met to be qualified to run with BW on the same HANA DB instance such as CAR, CEI, FM, TDF has been qualified?

- or -

For MCOD it's not possible in any case of ABAP Custom Application wherein an native one is possible (or rather within the meaning of 1661202 terminology)?

THX&BR

[henrique_pinto · Accepted solution]

Hi & ,

So, the problem is that, for custom developments, it's impossible for SAP to predict what kind of workload your custom app is gonna have and, consequently, whether it'd be safe for it to share the infrastructure with BW or any other SAP application, for that matter. All of those approved applications have very well known and predictable workloads that can be configured to run well together with a BW system.

Question: what kind of development are you doing on this ABAP stack?

Notice that SAP Note 1661202 does define a "Custom Applications" terminology, but it's more about HANA native apps (i.e. JS/HTML5 apps on XS Engine) or secondary DB connections towards that HANA box. Using it as a primary DB for custom apps shared with BW is not pre-approved simply because SAP doesn't know what that custom app is gonna do with HANA and, depending on what it does, it could impact BW's performance.

I'd say the safer approach for your customer, at this point, would be to try and leverage VMs (if they are ok with it). SAP has a pilot release for multiple VMs on the same box that your customer could apply to. Check SAP Note 2024433 for details.

Best,

Henrique.

[Former Member · Accepted solution]

Thanks a lot.

As for question: Let's say in its nature the custom application is similar to Biller Direct as an example or only credit balance account in general but without any user active/writing operations, rather data for user reading and especially for searching is feeded by another system nearly online.

And what about NW AS Java custom app - is it the same case? E.g. xApp or BPM app?

thx&br

[henrique_pinto · Accepted solution]

Hi Miloslav,

I don't think there would be a difference if it was AS Java.

In the same sense, it could have an unpredictable impact on the BW workload.

I'd say that, if you can, try to rewrite that app as a native HANA app.

Since you're saying it's mainly for searching/consuming data and not inserting/updating, it seems to me transactional/procedural control would not be something you'd be majorly worried about, and hence having a stateless lightweight app built on JavaScript/HTML5 could potentially be a good fit here.

Best,

Henrique.

[Former Member · Accepted solution]

Henrique,

what about two BW systems in one MCOD HANA?

Would that be supported please?

I'm trying to convince the customer to offload some data into a new BW system, that will contain just the billing data necessary for reporting.

It will be more time consuming transition process, but maybe worth the effort.

Thanks,

Michal

[henrique_pinto · Accepted solution]

Not for production, nope.

You'd still need two separate DB instances (that could share the same infrastructure if you use VMWare).

But I'd like to understand why you need that.

When you say billing data, is it SD billing or massive billing, like IS-Utilities or Convergent Invoicing?

What you could leverage, if it's just operational reporting on top of that billing data, is to leverage HANA native models (i.e. HANA views, in a HANA Live-like deployment) for that. Maybe even some of the standard HANA Live views could be leveraged for your case. And this scenario would be allowed to share the same HANA box than BW.

Best,

Henrique.

[Former Member · Accepted solution]

For future it is planned to make it as native app, so in my opinion the passage through migration into BW is let's say more paintfull or with obstacles and perhaps unnecessarily forced... *-)

Nope as for source of data. In the custom app case a bit history data is needed, however operational reporting/analytics could be the way how to start and redesign app to be more and more HANA native with data modelling accompanied.

thx

[boobboo · Accepted solution]

and ,

@Miloslav, perhaps you should look at the HANA Enterprise Cloud Project environments to help with your development efforts and at how you can maximise the HANA platform for your app - it is a great service (which I work for :disclosure) and it is a great HANA enabler.

@Michael, If you are concerned about the HANA investment, I would suggest you also look at the HANA Enterprise Cloud to help you to determine the value case and proposition for your business needs - we have had a lot of people using the project cloud for just such a reason and yes some of them have gone into Production, others staying on premise or with hosting partners.

I don't mean to sound all salesy, I usually hate writing this type of thing, but I have seen a number of companies clarify their HANA thinking with the HEC and thought it might be an idea.

Thanks

Chris

[sudha_rao2 · Accepted solution]

Hi Henri and others,

thanks for the detailed explanation and understanding on co-existence of applications.

However, i am confused if DBM and CRM can coexist on single HANA box.

I understand that DBM is tightly integrated with ECC components, hence as ECC and CRM cannot co-exisit  ,DBM and CRM cannot be run on production using MCOD option.

Kindly confirm on this.

Also, is it because CRM and ECC use the same object names that they cannot be deployed together ?( heard in 2013 teched).

Thanks,

Sudha

[Former Member]

Hi Michael:

It seems several questions are mixxed together here.  I try to answer what I can ascertain, let me know if I misunderstood anything:

Q: "Can a custom application run "on" the same SAP HANA system with a BW system?"  A: Yes, see note 1661202, which provides the whitelist of applications that can run on the same SAP HANA system.  The whitelist includes "custom applications".

Q: What if the other application is built on SAP NW AS ABAP?  And I already have an SAP NW AS ABAP for BW?  Can both SAP NW AS ABAP systems be deployed with one SAP HANA system as their single DB?  A: Yes.  Keep in mind that the default configuration is that each NW AS ABAP-based system is deployed as a Central Instance and application servers on seperate hardware servers than the SAP HANA hardware. Those SAP NW AS ABAP systems connect remotely to the SAP HANA DB.

Q: Can I run more than one SAP BW system on the same SAP HANA DB?  A: I think this was already answered, which is "no" presently for production systems, but is supported for non-production systems; see note 1666670.

A few things to keep in mind:

Please see the "further considerations" section of note 1661202.  Of particular importance is sizing. Utilize an additive sizing approach, where you figure out a good sizing estimation for each application or scenario, then add those together to determine the total sizing requirements. Don't underestimate and work with the hardware partner on any sizing estimations.

As of the beginning of the year, SAP began supporting the deployment of SAP NW AS ABAP application server directly on the SAP HANA system hardware. So far, support for one CI (Central Instance) and possibly additional app servers for the same system is provided, but not more than one CI (different AS ABAP systems).  See

With SPS09 (planned for Nov later this year), we plan to introduce a feature called "multiple databases" which will provide greater flexibility to deploy more than one application or scenario on the same SAP HANA DBMS, each with its own "tenant DB." Thus, in future we should expect to more readily support scenarios like more than one BW system running "on"the same SAP HANA system hardware.

Best Regards -

Ron Silberstein

SAP HANA Product Management

[petr_solberg]

Hi Ronald,

thanks for sharing some insight to what's coming with SP09.

Andy.

[Former Member]

Henrique pointed out that the definition of "custom applications" in SAP note 1661202 focuses on native SAP HANA applications.  From my view, that definition should be expanded to include all types of custom applications, including ones built on SAP NW AS ABAP.  I will discuss with the note processor, and assuming we get agreement we will go ahead and update the note accordingly.

Best Regards -

Ron

[henrique_pinto]

Thanks, Ron!

[petr_solberg]

Hi Ron,

you shared the following information:

With SPS09 (planned for Nov later this year), we plan to introduce a feature called "multiple databases" which will provide greater flexibility to deploy more than one application or scenario on the same SAP HANA DBMS, each with its own "tenant DB." Thus, in future we should expect to more readily support scenarios like more than one BW system running "on"the same SAP HANA system hardware.

Are you saying that as of SAP Hana 1.0 SP09,

     Multiple Components One System (MCOS)

          and/or

     Multiple DBs One HANA (MDOH)

          and

     Multi-SID

will be supported in the Productive scenario in one single "SAP HANA system" / "SAP HANA appliance".

This will obviously have a major positive impact on the implementation and operation costs.

Considering the above scenario, when do you foresee that documentation will be published on

Backup and Restore and Upgrades in the above scenarios, I mean, with multi, there is a cost saving,

but on the other side, there can be a major price to pay regarding maintenance, upgrades and backups and

restores, if for example any of these takes requires taking down all SIDs on the Appliance.

What is the timeline for publishing guidance on these subjects.

Thanks and kind regards,

Andy.

[henrique_pinto]

Im not sure it's multi-SID, I understand it's about creating more than one DB (database repositories) in the same DBMS instance.

I suppose they will extend the following (already existing) capability:

CREATE DATABASE - SAP HANA SQL and System Views Reference - SAP Library

[Former Member]

Hi Andy:

Indeed, Multi-DB does provide additional support for MCOD scenarios, and in most cases, will address the requriements that cause customers to seek MCOS (more than one SAP HANA DB on the single hardware).

Please keep in mind that this following  information is all roadmap, and may be subject to change. Multi-DB does not consist of more than one SID.  A good way to think of this concept is that we presently have a 1:1 relationship between the SAP HANA DBMS (SID) and the DB container. With this Multi-DB feature, we can change that to 1:n.  Each tenant DB in the Multi-DB scenario will have its own DB name to identify it, but will be part of the overall SID.  Each will be able to be backed up and restored independently.  They will be able to be stopped / started independently, etc.

. The current timeline for delivery is SPS09, which is planned for Nov 2014.  We will publish details in the rollout in that timeframe.  Previews will be available at SAP TechEd && d-code in the fall, where we will have a distinct session on this topic (SAP HANA Multiple Databases).

Best Regards -

Ron

[petr_solberg]

Hi Ron and Henrique,

thanks for the feedback and apologies for the delay in replying was on holiday.

The term Multi-SID comes from the OSS Note

     1681092 - Multiple SAP HANA databases on one SAP HANA system

My main point is, until now, it has not been supported in Production to have Multiple SIDs on one Hana Appliance.

If we all agree and assume that looking towards the future, 3 years, 5 years, 10 years, Hana will become the standard database platform for SAP systems and customer SAP landscapes

Then it follows that Productively,(and good practice is to have the same in Quality) in a customer SAP landscape based upon today's known possibilities, there will be lots and lots of Hana Appliances.

And looking towards the future and comparing to today, customers running large SAP landscapes are familiar for example with running huge IBM Power 7's with LPARs for hosting SIDs or, HP SuperDomes with nPars hosting multiple SIDs, and the current Productive stipulation of 1 SID to 1 Hana Appliance goes against the grain of this approach and hence the question, how far are we away from the days when there will be a piece of hardware, can be a Hana Appliance, a SuperDome, a Power 7, which can Productively host multiple SIDs running Hana DB.

That's the question, how far are we from that, 1 year, 2 years, 3 years ?

In the meantime, rolling out Hana across the large enterprise SAP landscape with one Productive Hana Appliance per SID looks a little untidy in comparison.

Looking forward to feedback.

Best regards,

Andy.

[henrique_pinto]

From a best practice perspective, even in non-HANA landscapes, SAP does not recommend to have more than one DB on the same logical instance (i.e. on the same OS). What you could do today is to share the same, say, Oracle instance between more than one application server (each one with its own Schema). That's what is gonna be available in SPS9.

Regarding LPARs, for the HW providers that support it, it's already possible to do it today.

I have seen that with Fujitsu & Hitachi machines.

As for IBM/AIX, when HANA is available on Power (planned for SPS9 as well), you'll also be able to use LPARs on the same physical machine for different HANA instances.

[Former Member]

Hi Andy:

Actually, multiple SIDs (physical DBs) on one production SAP HANA system is available today as part of an "early adopter" program where the customer must work closely with SAP on sizing and other aspects in order to implement.  I will discuss the implications for the text of note 1681092 with my colleagues.

However, as mentioned previously in this thread, with SPS09 we plan to introduce a new feature called "Multiple Databases" which will address most of the requirements that cause customers to consider installing more than one physical DB in a more elegant, efficient, and effective manner. Thus the demand for multi-SID will diminish as this becomes available.

That said, there probably will still be some use cases...e.g. with Multi-DB all tenant DBs are on the same revision...thus some customers may want to run Multi-SID anyway.  We will figure out the positioning for that in the months ahead as we get ready to roll out Multi-DB.

B/R -

Ron

[petr_solberg]

Hi Ron and Henrique,

thank you again for elaborating.

If I can summarise, and please correct me if I get this wrong:

With SPS09 (planned for Nov later this year), it will be possible to run SAP Hana on IBM Power,

with SAP Hana on an LPAR on the same physical machine as your other SAP SIDs.

ie, You have an IBM Power Server, with many LPARs containing different SAP SIDs and DB's for

those SIDs using classical LPAR layouts and designs.

And with SAP Hana SPS09 (planned for November 2014), customers will now be able to go to the

Unix Team and get an LPAR created on an IBM Power Machine for running SAP Hana, the same IBM

Power Machine where other LPARs are running other SAP SIDs.

And consequently, there won't be the requirement for loads of unique physical SAP Hana Appliances.

Is that what we are saying ?

If yes, this is a huge milestone in the maturity of SAP Hana and will make SAP Hana a much

more attractive option for a lot of customers.

Best regards,

Andy.

[Former Member]

Hi Andy:

Your statements above are all accurate (in other words, are aligned with the plans).  Also, as Henrique pointed out, " Regarding LPARs, for the HW providers that support it, it's already possible to do it today. I have seen that with Fujitsu & Hitachi machines."

Additionally, the planned feature Multi-DB (planned for SPS09) will go a long way towards addressing the requirements that drive the desire for multi-SID, and this will be available without using LPARs or VMs (but could be used in combination if so desired).

Best Regards -

Ron

[petr_solberg]

Hi Ron,

thank you for the confirmation.

I will share this information with colleagues.

Best regards,

Andy.

[petr_solberg]

Hi Ron,

I noticed this Note has been updated:

     1661202 - Support for multiple applications on SAP HANA

Considering the synergies between the three, and in giving consideration to

simplification, would it be worth to merge these three OSS Notes,

          1661202 - Support for multiple applications on SAP HANA

          1826100 - Multiple applications SAP Business Suite powered by SAP HANA

          1681092 - Multiple SAP HANA databases on one SAP HANA system

into one Super OSS Note encompassing/containing the whole subject?

The three of them refer to each other and compliment each other and cross over in a number of ways.

Best regards,

Andy.

[former_member195748]

Hi Ron,

With the possiblity of running 2 BW DB on a single HANA DB ruled out. Can it be possible to install a VMWARE on HANA box, Create 2 VM instances and run 2 BW servers individually,

That way, we can run 2 BW servers on single HANA Box.

[Former Member]

Vivek,

We are stuck on the same issue, where we are trying to install two BW as abap instances(DEV and Quality) in one hana DB.... Do you have any sap documentation on this.. which says it is not possible ? (MCOD not possible on HANA) ?

two different BW schemas on same hana DB

Thank you,
praveen

[former_member195748]

Hi Praveen,

For Dev and Quality, its possible, only problem is with Production system. you cant run multiple producton system in the same box.

Regards,

Vivek

[petr_solberg]

Hi Michal,

thanks for putting the question, agreed, as we discussed the Hana MCOD OSS Note 1661202 does not explicitly include in the White List a NetWeaver ABAP Stack and hence sharing the question with the community to find the answer for the benefit of all,

     Can two ABAP (based) Stacks harmoniously reside on the same Hana Database in a Hana      MCOD scenario ?

OSS Note 1666670 specifically says,

     SAP does not support the deployment of BW with any other packaged application or scenario      (that are not on the "White List" in SAP note 1661202) on the same production SAP HANA      system

     SAP does not support the deployment of multiple SAP NetWeaver BW systems on      one production SAP HANA system

     SAP does support the deployment of multiple SAP NetWeaver BW systems within a single-node      or  scale out non-production SAP HANA system (with one DB for each SAP BW system)

               see SAP note 1681092 about "Multiple DBs one SAP HANA" system

               But... this is not MCOD is it.

Based upon my interpretation of the OSS Notes, my answer is no, but let's see what the experts say.

Best regards,

Andy.