SAP to acquire hybris - What does that mean for WCEM?

[Former Member]

Hello community,

this is my first time starting a discussion on SCN.

I am working in the metal working industry in Austria and have been responsible for Online Marketing, Social Media, Keyword Marketing, etc. for the past two years. I am currently undergoing a transition and will probably be part of our internal SAP team and dedicate my time to E-Commerce exclusively. My company has been talking about a B2B online shop for one of our brands for quite some time now and the story so far has been more than interesting. Let me try to sum it up for you:

We started out in the summer of 2012 by interviewing different possible partners and the scenario we were looking at was a stand-alone shop, possibly done with Magento, with the master data coming from our old AS/400 system. At the same time, a separate project team in our company started to look at the option of replacing our AS/400 system with SAP ERP. From there on, we started to look at B2B online shop systems that would pull all necessary master data out of SAP ERP. For quite a few months we were then going back and forth, discussing with both companies, one implementing E-Commerce solutions via hybris and another partner that would offer a 100% SAP solution. While evaluating both offers, many in the company - especially people on the online marketing/brand management/content management side - would have preferred a hybris solution consisting of hybris PCM and WCEM. For various reasons that I don't want to state here, the company offering hybris lost the bidding and my company decided to go for the SAP solution. Advantages pointed out here were having to deal only with one partner and not having to come up with interfaces between hybris PCM and SAP ERP. Work was then started on a SAP WCEM shop prototype, specifically a scenario were SAP ERP master data would be imported into SAP MDM. Product catalogs would be maintained in SAP MDM, while the shop itself would go online via the WCEM web channel builder. So far so good. After working with our prototype, we quickly found out that we would also need some SAP CRM components, first and foremost CRM order management and complain management. These would be necessary to achieve our initial goals of bringing the whole customer support process online, including customer complaints.

Next month we will further define the project milestones, we're currently looking at 1x ERP, 1x CRM, 1x MDM, 1x WCEM, 2x PI, 1x FTP. The necessary MDM repositories will be prepared for PD1, PQ1, and PP1. A PI integration scenario will be defined for PD1, PQ1, and PP1. I am more than excited to finally start some serious work, after a long phase of evaluating different scenarios, bidding, prototyping, etc.

Yesterday I visited hybris.com and I read there about SAP's plans of acquiring hybris. While not exactly unprepared for this (I heard SAP has been knocking on hybris' door for a while), it nevertheless came as a surprise for me - even more so after considering our story so far. I am certain that our ERP/CRM/MDM/WCEM project will be successful and meet our initial expectations. But I also know about hybris PCM's strengths and totally understand SAP's planned acquisition. To come to a point: I now wonder what this will mean for SAP's E-Commerce offerings. I know it is way to early to tell, also because so far this is nothing more than a plan to acquire hybris. Nevertheless, I am imagining different future scenarios. I don't want our company to go the MDM/WCEM route with the possibility of these products being obsolete in 2 years. To be honest though, I am not sure about the alternative at the moment: wait another year to see if the acquisition goes through, then wait some more to see how hybris' products will be integrated into SAP in the future. As far as I understand, hybris is supposed to stay an independent business unit, but what does that mean for the Web Channel/WCEM offering?

Any thoughts, inputs, comments are more than appreciated! Thank you.

[Former Member · Accepted solution]

Hello Stefan,

i think you do not have to be scared to much about using right now MDM & WCEM. E-Business and solutions like WCEM have proofen to be a growing market, especially as SAP had missed to jump (back) on train in time. WCEM is absolutely the best answer to catch up, any buying solutions like Ariba and Hybris are just the follow-up activities from SAP to continue investing into this market.

I personally hope, that Hybris PCM will be estbalished as another alternative to Trex and MDM to additional strengthen the foundation of WCEM. Catalog Management solutions are anyway areas, where I see a lots of potentialality to further invest beside some other areas.

For the moment do not be concerned, i think it will take until 2014 before you can take advantage of new core functionalities. The big advantage of WCEM is, that you do not lose your developments and you will be able to switch in time between the PIM solution that  fits your personal needs.

Regards,

Andreas

[Former Member · Accepted solution]

Hi Andreas,

thanks for sharing your thoughts. I misspelled something in the original post:"a hybris solution consisting of hybris PCM and WCEM". I meant to say consisting of hybris PCM and WCMS (hybris Web Content Management System). All these abbreviations...

I agree with you on hybris PCM and MDM. PCM seems quite powerful and also serves as the backbone for the other hybris modules in my opinion.

Best regards,

Stefan

[Former Member · Accepted solution]

HI,

content management has not yet been strong skill of SAP  and I expect, that SAP is also targeting to filling this cap with some In-House capabilities as well as additional partner solutions - especially as (WEB-)CMS is a topic that has been developed over the last  decade from a nice to have to must have. This is a general topic accross SAP solutions and not just only the Web-Channel. With CoreMedia, SAP has already a extremly strong solution in place and I am looking forward of how this will be combined with Hybris features - this actually makes me even more excited to see the  milestones to be defined for the versions 4.0 & 5.0. The combination of WCEM, Hybris, CoreMedia etc. makes everything promising and just proofs to be, that going for WCEM is the right way to go especially with such quick development progress.

Cheers,

Andreas

[Former Member · Accepted solution]

Hello Andreas,

I haven't worked with CoreMedia yet, it seems to be more of a niche CMS specifically tailored for usage with SAP WCEM. I've had a chance to look at hybris WCMS but without an opportunity to really evaluate it. Personally, I believe that the strength of hybris - or its DNA so to say - lies within the PIM capabilities of PCM. I know of a case here in Austria where a company decided to go for SAP ERP and hybris PCM, but then opted for Sitecore as a (Web) CMS. Therefore I would guess that by acquiring hybris SAP plans to improve its standing within the Multichannel and PIM field, not necessarily the CMS field. Just my two cents...future will tell and it seems to stay exciting the least.

Cheers and have a nice weekend,

Stefan

[Former Member · Accepted solution]

Hello Stefan,

no, CoreMedia and their solution has NO roots  with SAP. They have their own CMS system (and more as that) - very very powerful. It would be a unterstatement, if i would just declare it as a CMS. They "only" did establish a extension to link their CMS with WCEM. When you see the solution in person, you will see that this is going far beyond your expectations. Probably a must have, if you want to maximise the control about content & marketing material expects - especially in the B2C case.

The future definetely becomes more exciting!

Have a good weekend as well!

Regards,

Andreas

[ingo_woesner · Accepted solution]

Hi Stefan,

I did a webinar with SAP and CoreMedia, and a recording is available in both German and English.

You find the links to all the sessions and the recordings in my blog

http://scn.sap.com/community/crm/web-channel/blog/2013/03/11/wcem-30--upcoming-live-expert-sessions-....

Best regards,

Ingo

[Former Member · Accepted solution]

Hi Ingo,

thanks for providing the link here, I've actually watched the CoreMedia session before. Looking forward to more great webinars, for me they provide very valuable insights.

Regards,

Stefan

[Former Member]

I was thinking if I have or have not to post something here, about Hybris and WCEM. I had the opportunity to talk with Dr. Woesner and many other people from Hybris and SAP. I will post some information tha´s already known by the media, and probably known by you.

1 - The direction for who is adopting a eCommerce solution now is Hybris. SAP Announced this.

2 - Since Hybris does not came from SAP, I mean, is not a SAP product originally, it had problems regarding connectivity with ECC. Had, because (2 options):

A) Hybris announced an accelerator (connector called ECA) that connects to ECC

B) SAP annouonced the Business ByDesign as being the solution to be used to connect to Hybris.

3 - Peter Sheldon from Forrester predicted in next months a new Hybris version with native connectivity will come. This is the natural way of things to happen, the case, is just to know when this will happen.

Now regarding the WCEM:

1 - It´s a good product, no doubt, specially for those who are already using SAP.Believe me I evaluated in details WCEM 3.0. This is a good option. Many interesting features, and native connectivity.

2 - SAP will keep support for many years as far as I know. I don´t keep numbers in my mind, but I´m sure about it.

Now, Hybris, is a heavy player in the market, according to Gartner Quadrant. Is a good, robust, and flexible software (still evaluating, and so far, just saw good things).

Now, another thing that´s really natural to happen, and this a guess (sorry Dr. Woesner), I believe a "dream team" was formed for the new Hybris version that´s coming, put together people from WCEM product team with Hybris team, and you will have a very, very good product. I mean, put together the number 1 market share leader for ERP and CRM, with a top eCommerce product, and you will see SAP giving 1 big step ahead of competitors. Good thing.

[ingo_woesner]

Hi Luiz,

thank you for actively contributing here. I agree with you with what you have said, except the last abstract:

Now, another thing that´s really natural to happen, and this a guess (sorry Dr. Woesner), I believe a "dream team" was formed for the new Hybris version that´s coming, put together people from WCEM product team with Hybris team, and you will have a very, very good product. I mean, put together the number 1 market share leader for ERP and CRM, with a top eCommerce product, and you will see SAP giving 1 big step ahead of competitors. Good thing.

I would like to outline that this is a specualtion made by you, not by me. Not sure why you are quoting me.

Yes, there is a team of SAP and hybris colleagues to work on an integration of hybris into SAP backends, logically. I cannot comment what the future will bring. That's why it is (your) guess. But I love the idea.

Best regards,

Ingo

[Former Member]

Hi Dr. Woesner,

I didn´t quote, I apologized with anticipation, predicting what you stated . That´s correct, the last statement, it´s my personal guess.

Plus, I´d like to say, I worked with IBM WCS years ago, and now with Hybris, can make the comparison, and (personnaly) can say, this Hybris-Sap eCommerce product is awesome.

best regards,

Luiz

[Former Member]

Hi,

I know WCEM is stopped for major developments. However, still I would like to know if WCEM will have order change and quote change functionality in near future with SP release. Many customers are now in middle of implementations and they want atleast this functionality to be there. It is major major issue if this functionality needs to be custom built. Can you confirm if SAP is working on atleast this feature?

I recently saw that 3.0 SP1 was released. Any other SP planned?

Best regards,

-Tarun

[Former Member]

Hi,

i would not expect any major new feature development right now - especially as SP1 was just releasted. However, bthe GenIL Interface should give you this capability within CRM scenario. I have not yet used it this way and cannot give any guarantee, but for the service orders within WCEM it is used and actually pretty simple once you get used to it. Allows you to read & modify service orders / transaction and sales orders are the same object types.

Within WCEM you have a generic GenIL framework, that handles the actually GenIL calls to the backend. If you use one of the existing screens related to the sevice orders, you might only have to do some "minor" adjustments to get your desired functionality. The Web-UI is also using the GenIL layer, so in case of you do some enhancements, you do not have to develop it twice.

Regards,

Andreas

[Former Member]

Hi Andreas,

I know it can be done with modifications but this is a request/plead to SAP to deliver this functionality with a SP. SAP can plan anything for future of WCEM and Hybris but leaving WCEM at this point is ridiculous.

This message is for SAP. Is someone listening?

Best regards,

-Tarun

[ingo_woesner]

Hi Tarun, and other community members,

I can confirm that the "order change" and "quote change" feature is (unfortunately) not planned.

I know it is important for many B2B businesses but after the acquisition of hybris please understand that future investments will be made in hybris itself and the integration in ERP.

As part of the SAP Business Suite, all releases of WCEM will be supported until Dec 31, 2020.

I know there is a great demand for detailed roadmaps, planned features, timelines etc. Please understand that for legal reasons SAP is not publicly unveiling information about developments which are not released. Please contact your SAP Account Executive if you need a direct advice for your business. My hands are bound in a public forum as this is here.

Best regards,

Ingo Woesner

Product Management Multi Channel

SAP AG

[Former Member]

After full synchronous online integration, I do see values for Hybris for SAP shops in future.  How long would the integration take will be another question.  This is just like PCUI to WebUI development chaos.

Better approach would have been, for new version of WCEM build it with Spring technology and JDK 1.6.  This way you would have the integration built already and gained more trust for the SAP shops.  Sudden Hybris purchase is just too aggressive and greed part of SAP; it does lose trust of existing customers on WCEM/Web Channel.

Now do we plan on upgrade or purchase Hybris and implement "big bang"?  What about the Web Channel shops with few thousands of custom development?  What about the all the standard off the shelf WCEM/Web Channel functionalties?  Are they all available with Hybris?  If not then what are the gaps and how long will it take to be released?

Of course, SAP gained 500 more customers by buying the Hybris but how many existing customers will it lose by hastely stopping the WCEM/Web Channel development?  What about the tens of thousands of developers?  Am I seeing long gone ERP, like Baan?

[sappy]

Hybris? Huh? What's that? Can it call RFC in CRM? How long will the integration would take? Would it work with ECC in Backend? For awhile, it will be WCEM or Web Channel. Until the integration is successful, it would stay on it's own pedestal and won't be useful in SAP World. If it's a simple web site then try [mod edit: other tools]; you don't even need developer. For full blown B2B websites with IPC with configurable products, milions of dollars orders per day fully secured and integrates with full fulfillment system, ECC, there's nothing else except WCEM or Web Channel.

Answer was moderated to remove link violating rules of engagement (https://community.sap.com/resources/rules-of-engagement). These rules forbid "[c]ontent or comments primarily designed to drive traffic to, increase the search rankings of, generating revenue from, or gain any other personal benefit from a non-SAP site, product, or service."

[daniel_ruiz2]

Hi Kyo,

I'm interested about your WCEM experience, anything online you've developed I can actually see?

Cheers,

D.

[Former Member]

Hi Kyo,

the point of view you are expressing is represting the actual situation for most of the SAP clients; the ones who are looking into a integrated scenario with SAP - you do not have be a technical guy to know that.

However, it is indeed possible to perform easily RFC calls and it as even possible to start up the core components of the Web-Channel framework within Hybris e.g. the BO Layer, if you are really experienced. On the other hand this does not mean you are instantly integrated with Hybris as the connection between both worlds is the major amount of work. There is a plugin from a third party to connect to SAP, but this is plugin does enable a real time integration as we know it with SAP Web-Channel - it does just do the absolute basics like exchange of materials and orders, but even those objects filled up with the minimum amount of data; with the dozens of paramaters for the order object and thousands of lines of business logic behind (as kindly Danial Ruiz stated before), this might make clear that a company cannot take full advantage of their SAP system without extensive extra work. 

@Daniel As you are a developer and not a business man, the world for you does look different. As long you are not requiring a SAP integrated scenarion, you are good, but from the moment you have to aline your business processes with the e-commerce channel e.g. Call Centre, dynamic pricing, real time order & logistic processes, warehouse management, campaign management, service management, procurement processes, contract management, and endless more processes - even the ones you think are not directly connected, then the implementation time and material cost will explode and become easily 4-times more expensive. We are talking about up to 7-digits numbers more cost. Implementation times of up to almost 2 years rather then few months. This is just about the implementation part, we have not yet even spoken about the maintenance cost and risks containment.

Hybris does not yet offer, what the current SAP Web-Channel does - this is not a secret, as these are the information a decision maker at customer-side has to figure out during the acquisition phase. SAP is aware about that and is keen to fill the integration gap as quickly as possible, so that Hybris will fullfil soon the same advantages as you have today with the current SAP Web-Channel products. That´s why i said, you might still want to implement SAP WCEM and easily migrate to Hybris, once it is providing the missing functionalities - you might even be far cheaper with the implementation cost of both projects together (using a good timing) as doing Hybris (as is) right now (without having the company SAP  directly involved).

So if you think every Hybris (or other app like Magento) will be always in disadvantage compare to SAP, then you misunderstood me, because this is actually the reason why SAP bought Hybris - it does serve  different customer groups (Non-SAP, SAP Retail clients without strong integration,..) and allows to enable more usage scenarios e.g. Cloud-Capabilities.

Cheers

[daniel_ruiz2]

Hi Andreas,

Situation is simple:

There is no way you will end up with a decent B2B/B2C if your 'online process' touches ABAP (ECC/CRM) - Reason why? - Code in there has no performance.

There is a 'miscalculation' from your part:

Being a 'developer' allows me to know in detail what works and what doesn't work, how long it takes and what are the complications. I'm pretty sure even internally in SAP, some of the folks which coded WCEM must know what works and what doesn't - but hey, they have a boss that may not understand easy stuff, so we end up with a 'Basket Refresh' of nearly 1 sec (or more) in WCEM where it should be 100ms TOPS.

Also, please be aware: Hybris DOES OFFER a pretty damn good tech stack to integrate with "ANY" sofware. However, SAP does not provide decent INTEGRATION OPTIONS neither has a true SERVICE ORIENTED APPROACH which complicates things. So in a way, problem is not Hybris is SAP itself.

Cheers,

D.

PS: Projects I'm involved does not explode in Price neither Time... As I mentioned above, I can tell upfront what works and what doesn't, so 'no big surprises' happens.

PS2: Please let not be hippies, RFC's are the 80's and that does not count.

[Former Member]

Hi Daniel,

no, there was no miscalculation. As developer you might know to figure out specific tasks and do good, but you won't get the overall picture that the business guy has to handle. You never have to be concerned about project budget beside your personal cost impact, you never have to spend time to figure out how to justify investments into specific features, neither you won't understand the impact on the business plan / strategy as of decisions, you do spent time thinking about how you can turn everything into a profit, ... you might know what the customer might like, but this does not define a successful business.

Every good developer will spent some time to think about the complications specific changes will have & how long it might takes and I am sure you are doing that good. But this is your own micro-world - a role restricted to the specific functionality. I am talking about the far far bigger world around you; impacts, that a software architect as to consider for the whole application, a basis guy for the whole landscape, a consultant has to consider for whole business processes, a project manager has to consider for the whole project, a business owner for his business division and the CEO for the whole company. I hope you agree, that a CEO clearly has different motivations to decide if he is going to use WCEM as you?

I try to understand your points, so please convince me by giving me more details. You obviously have very good ideas how SAP can do technology wise better. You brought up some points, that do very much win my interest - just saying everything " it is bad", is easy but then it should come with a detailed story about the "how".

So here are a few questions and I hope you can provide a reasonable insight for each

1. You saying the order interface to the SAP backend does have 50 parameters. I know it has a lot, but how much do you think such interface actually needs?
2. You are saying behind the order interface we have 4000 lines of code. What do you think SAP is doing within those 4000 lines of code that is unnecessary? How much lines of code you would need to handle incoming orders and what kind of activity you would perform to consider such task as fulfilled?
3. What makes you think, that there is in general no performance? If there is no performance, then something must be wrong and can be improved. So what you think is the actual cause of the slow response (e.g. like database too slow, unnecessary re-pricing, etc.) and what do you recommend?
4. The interface you are referring is called in real-time, would you do it different? Do you actually see a need to perform it in real-time and how you would do that?
5. To be able to understand what you are actually missing regarding Service oriented approach, you need to explain me in detail what you hope to see and miss. What you like to do and would needs to be different in detail, so that you see it as service oriented - this might take you a pretty long section to explain it, but please take your time. 
6. Where do you see, that Hybris does offer this service oriented capabilities, that you cannot find at WCEM? Do you have a specific example even a piece of code would be interesting - a background story would be nice for a usage scenario within Hybris?
7. Have you found any service-oriented structures at all within WCEM?
8. What kind of integration option you are missing within WCEM? What you need to see to call it decent? Do you have a example?
9. Why is RFC not ok for you? What is the reason why you call it 80's? What you would change and what kind of technology you recommend using to exchange information between systems?
10. What do you think is causing the "slow" response time for the basket refresh? What you recommend to change?

As you highlighted your project experience. which projects have you done? Full project life-circles? Which one had SAP and which degree of integration to SAP was chosen? Anything online you've developed I can actually see (beside DB Breweries)? How many WCEM, Mangento and Hybris projects you have done, which involved you for more as 20 man-days?

Looking forward to your recommendations,

Regards,

Andreas

[daniel_ruiz2]

Hi Andreas,

I understand your point of view, because you came from a SAP 'landscape' and you tend to underestimate developers like everyone else in SAP. On the points you mentioned in your first paragraph, I can probably undertake all of them: however, my technical language confuses most 'non technical' people (for instance you included) - that doesn't make any less capable, however in some degree less effective than sales people who would read a PDF from SAP and preach whatever as truth.

Now, second paragraph, you ought understand that I've passed over 20 "at least" different languages, I have been over most of methodologies and being a "Developer" is what I have chosen: I could have chosen other positions along my path but they never attracted me.. there is 'talk the talk', but I'd rather 'walk the walk'. All things you have mentioned comes to be a very narrow point of view, maybe the one you accept as truth: could it even be lack of exposure of your part to other approaches, but hey.. whatever you decide is best for you, live and let die. And about your point of the CEO, what you exactly wanna say? - A CEO "knows" which platform to run his business? - Does he have technical expertise to analyse if platform A does what it claim to do? - No, he usually doesn't and well.. why would he? - He's not technical.

Now about your points, I will do one by one:

1. An interface must have *ONLY* what it needs to perform it's function: each one has a function, a purpose, just like an object.

2. You may have one million lines of code split into 100 thousand CLASSES (look, NO FUNCTION MODULES) - each one applying single purpose principle. NOTHING from SAP does such (please introduce me one class that does such, even REGEX in SAP is broken, go look into Python implementation for more details).

3. I recommend DI based on rules not configuration, such approach does not exist in SAP - please check how the folks in smalltalk used to solve such.

4. Offline process, no worries you touch ABAP. Online process, avoid ABAP at all cost and develop a middleware like SUP to keep things in sync and not generate unnecessary overhead due bloated processes in SAP. Bring keys from ABAP if necessary, not full records - If ABAP cannot handle requisitions, bring the KEY over to a more effective platform and make this platform your KEY assigner for records. (ABAP consuming in this case)

5. Every single BAPI in SAP must have a SOAP service, a REST service and must follow single purpose. RFC's are gone, no one would even come CLOSE to RFC's even they had an option.

6. Spring, end of story. If you don't know Spring, I would recommend you research: please also forward the hyperlink to your SAP friends and ask them to enable load time weaving in the AS because not having it is lame.

7. No. All RFC based as you know, BO's has a tight couple dependency to a framework inherited from ISA.

8. WCEM as a platform does not need anything. Only people running SAP would consider WCEM, and WCEM should not carry business logic (defeats ERP purpose) - However, ECC/CRM should be able to easily connect to any open standard.

9. CORBA / RMI-IIOP.

10. Basket Refresh does ONLY basket refresh. Not a single "IF" statement in the logic not related to that. ET_ALTERNATIVE_PARTNERS? - No, it's not a basket refresh parameter.

I started at Modem Media Poppe Tyson around 99, I worked for major B2B/B2C projects thru these 14 years including Philips, Novartis, BRT, Faber, IBM, BASF, and so many others I cannot even recall. My first 'platform' was ATG in 99 and I cannot even enumerate platforms and technologies I have used..

My coolest projects were around real time movement recognition using eye4u and tuio, and most of the stuff you deem to be hard does not look that hard for me: only the part of poor implementation, that really bugs me.

Also, please it spells "MAGENTO" - as per 20-man days, you also want to face it people have different outputs and 20 days of my output would probably blow your mind.. but hey, you know what I did and I have simply no clue whatsoever you have done... (despite crying to my CEO perhaps?) - I reckon this answers your question..

Cheers,

D.

PS: don't take it personal, I like these funny threads!

[Former Member]

Let's talk when it's fully integrated with JCO or something.  Then attache VM7 Pricing and product  configuration with millions of configurable material's attributes and see how Hybris performs.  We can compare then actual eye to eye what's best.  SAP stopping development of already proven SW is just downright waste of money, time and resource; it's ridiculous.

[Former Member]

Don’t be worried, I know how to spell Magento - just too big fingers for the keyboard .

No, I do not take it personal - but you always get personal. As I said, I was having the same point of view as you have within my first two years using SAP's product - I would have loved at this time to rewrite everything. But this point of view does change as more you understand the whole connection to the surrounding environment, the reason why it was done and how business process within SAP are designed - well about coding of other developers you can always complain, you always find something and in any system. This is the case for SAP as well as for Hybris. I tried to not to point out that you are not a good developer, I very much doubt that, but I doubt you have spent enough time with SAP itself to really understand why things are as they are. From my understanding you just did one SAP project and then just a frontend-layer, not the backend itself - this is simply not enough to see the whole connection. That's why I said, you cannot compare your experience with non-SAP projects with SAP projects - these projects are different worlds, different situation and different motivations.

As of this situation and as you say you can easily perform the role of an manager, I would simply recommend you to perform this role for the next sales process for an SAP client that is looking into a integrated scenario to their backend. Make the estimates of the budget (alone without any of the real managers), sell it as fix price and I guarantee you, if you try to sell e.g. Hybris that you will cause a damage to your company that is 1-3 times of original planed budget. You can be the best developer on the world, but you will fail if you assume to be able to straightaway perform the role of a project manager / businessman without having been trained.

  You have not listed Hybris in your expertise, but I cannot understand why you talk so good about it? I did spend lots of time in the Hybris code and work with it - there is nothing that supports your position to demolish SAP.

Getting to your questions

Daniel Ruiz wrote:

1. An interface must have *ONLY* what it needs to perform it's function: each one has a function, a purpose, just like an object.

This means there is something it should not have, what is it?

Daniel Ruiz wrote:
2. You may have one million lines of code split into 100 thousand CLASSES (look, NO FUNCTION MODULES) - each one applying single purpose principle. NOTHING from SAP does such (please introduce me one class that does such, even REGEX in SAP is broken, go look into Python implementation for more details).

I am getting confused, are you talking about Java now or still ABAP? Java is object driven and I assume you agree, but the original ABAP is procedure-oriented until the RFC function hands over to the ABAP-OO. Is it about the ERP LORD interface? Which function module is you referring, because I find object orientated designs?

And yes, ABAP code is reusable. Just use the Usage-Search tool, and then you see where functionality is used.

Daniel Ruiz wrote:
I recommend DI based on rules not configuration, such approach does not exist in SAP - please check how the folks in smalltalk used to solve such.

"DI" stands for what? I think you have not answered the question!? Where exactly you want to have the rules, because SAP has various places, where rule sets are used e.g. pricing. But why a configuration would cause a small response time?

Daniel Ruiz wrote:
Offline process, no worries you touch ABAP. Online process, avoid ABAP at all cost and develop a middleware like SUP to keep things in sync and not generate unnecessary overhead due bloated processes in SAP. Bring keys from ABAP if necessary, not full records - If ABAP cannot handle requisitions, bring the KEY over to a more effective platform and make this platform your KEY assigner for records. (ABAP consuming in this case)

But you know that this is already enabled within WCEM? You know, that SAP offers you various options to minimize the direct communication with the backend to the absolute minimum? You can choose dynamic pricing (=> not supported by Hybris) or list prices (=> Hybris). You can choose between backend basket (=ABAP) and java basket,... I assume you have today with your 2nd phase of DB Breweries the trouble, as you chosen the Backend basket? This is not the fault of SAP, it is the fault of the architect as he chosen to have it this way - so why you blame SAP here?

The main issue is probably, your client wants to have a backend basket as he wants to have all checks performed by the backend directly or did not wanted to maintain all products in the web-shop.

Just to let you know, if you use e.g. MDM and CRM, there is a sync-interface between both systems. You can create data there and it gets synchronized to the backend once the process performs an update. Is DB Breweries using MDM?

Every single BAPI in SAP must have a SOAP service, a REST service and must follow single purpose. RFC's are gone, no one would even come CLOSE to RFC's even they had an option.

What do you think on what RFC is actually based? This is already the case from the moment you set  the remote flag   But OData is the future at SAP - cannot be more service orientated. Even WCEM does introduced a OData support with the newest SP1, the iPad Version of WCEM we developed beginning of 2013 was completed based on those services and is running in the demo-cloud. There is not a single piece of information that is not coming through services - very sexy.

Spring, end of story. If you don't know Spring, I would recommend you research: please also forward the hyperlink to your SAP friends and ask them to enable load time weaving in the AS because not having it is lame.

AspectJ you probably want? What does that have in relationship with a Service Orientated approach? Indeed a cool feature, also like Typescript and other things. But again, the question was where Hybris does this service-orientated capabilities including example to be able to show you, where you find it within WCEM. Just throwing the word "Spring" does not help us, because the whole JSF framework does also have it's benefits and the spring framework is not fully used within Hybris. So where you see the services, give me a code example?

No. All RFC based as you know, BO's has a tight couple dependency to a framework inherited from ISA.

Well, you can't see the forest for the trees. Let's focus on the BO and backend. WCEM is based on various service layers; the whole BO Layer within WCEM is a service layer. Every individual implementation behind a BO can be replaced with a custom implementation, so you can easily call link in your own custom catalogue management system rather then using Trex or MDM.

There is indeed some code from ISA, you find somehow and somewhere in the backend implementations - ISA or not, it's SAP. But I cannot see the issue here, because WCEM was designed for SAP customers and not Peoplesoft. So you also will find some of the logical structures and relationship to objects within the frontend. You will find also within Hybris, that all objects are aligned to support the Hybris backend structure - same as SAP did.

The only nice feature I really appreciate is the code generation. The dynamic generation & integration of java objects using an xml file. A example for non-Hybris people, I have a basket object and need a new feature, that does not yet exist e.g. ATP checks. I define this new object within the xml including the relationship to the basket, and after the next build I have all my getter & setters to work with on the basket. Very cool!

Daniel Ruiz wrote:
WCEM as a platform does not need anything. Only people running SAP would consider WCEM, and WCEM should not carry business logic (defeats ERP purpose) - However, ECC/CRM should be able to easily connect to any open standard.

You are always confusing me; this whole discussion is about WCEM. You obviously agree, that you have all the flexibility to integrated functionality to WCEM otherwise people like CoreMedia would not be able integrated their systems easily.

But now you switch the topics actually referring not to WCEM as former competition to Hybris, now you are talking just about the backend. But you are again wrong, SAP does offer you all interfaces to directly call the backend. It does not have to be WCEM, ISA... it does not have to be Java or ABAP... it can be everything. Otherwise how have partner companies managed to enable Hybris, Magento, etc. plug-ins to SAP? SAP does offer you endless ways to exchange information using open standards including SOAP, OData, Flat files, ... all data is accessible and even the source code is completely open ... unlike Hybris, which is partially a black box!

And you are correct, only people running SAP or planning to implement SAP are going for WCEM.... that's why I also said always for non-SAP clients the whole situation looks different!

Daniel Ruiz wrote:
Basket Refresh does ONLY basket refresh. Not a single "IF" statement in the logic not related to that. ET_ALTERNATIVE_PARTNERS? - No, it's not a basket refresh parameter.

Again, if you use the backend basket, then all calls are referred to the backend otherwise you should use the Java basket!

Btw. I also used ATG in my very first project, but there we had still the ugly JSP replacement. And have done also as developer lots of exciting projects from adaptive intelligent buildings, to real estate to SAP web-channel in endless scenarios. So I did not come from the SAP "landscape" to Web-Channel, I come from the same background as you came from.

[daniel_ruiz2]

Hi Andreas,

Can you please tell me back-end version of CRM with fully enabled web-services?

I still have not seen that, pretty sure some customers I work are pretty much on the latest release / patch level.. and I still cannot find the so called web-services you mentioned.

Btw, this discussion is about Hybris and how WCEM is already dead.. It's pretty much *YOU* the only person who actually tries so hard to see advantage in a product that already has been discarded.. and the reason is obvious:

Your so called business deals *pretty much only* with WCEM... At least, this is what I can find out around the internet, and it's very little content.

Move on, even SAP did move on.. learn to let go.... thus, I will not debate technical aspects with a non-technical person, its clearly a waste of my time.

To summarize:

1. Hybris and WCEM are not on the same ballpark, Hybris is far superior in every single design aspect as far I analysed.

2. Customers or people like you may believe Hybris integration with ECC/CRM to be an issue or too costly due lack of expertise.

3. ECC/CRM were never developed to be open for consumption of third-party system, thus leading peeps like you to believe it's *too hard* to integrate systems.

I'll leave you with some Leo...

"I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives."

And we're done here, peace! - Let's please move on..

D.

[Former Member]

Hi Daniel,

i do not want to spent too much time to enlight you, because this is about WCEM and not basic SAP. I only wanted to show you, that you are not aware about the full picture and that your quick judgment is hence not correct as it is impossible to being aware about eveything after few years. 

Daniel Ruiz wrote:
Can you please tell me back-end version of CRM with fully enabled web-services?

This is not about CRM, it is about the NetWeaver stack. Any ABAP stack does provide this capabilities and this at least since SAP NetWeaver WebAs 6.20 hence at least since 10 years.

Daniel Ruiz wrote:
I still have not seen that, pretty sure some customers I work are pretty much on the latest release / patch level.. and I still cannot find the so called web-services you mentioned.

SAP does come with a endless set of features which most people are not aware about it.  Just by using Google, i get pointed into the right direction

http://scn.sap.com/docs/DOC-24154

If the full soap interface is enabled, then you should see the list of Web-Services using

http://<host_name>:<port_number>/sap/bc/bsp/sap/WebServiceBrowser/search.html?sap-client=<relevant_client>

But careful, this is not the only way. There are many other services layers & technologies, which do also provide web-services e.g. through the enterprise gateway. Maybe also things like ESOA might be interesting, even if i think it was a flop considering to the expectations that have been raised.

Btw, this discussion is about Hybris and how WCEM is already dead.. It's pretty much *YOU* the only person who actually tries so hard to see advantage in a product that already has been discarded.. and the reason is obvious: 
Your so called business deals *pretty much only* with WCEM... At least, this is what I can find out around the internet, and it's very little content.
Move on, even SAP did move on.. learn to let go.... thus, I will not debate technical aspects with a non-technical person, its clearly a waste of my time.

I did not deny that WCEM is discontinued in development as we knew it, i also did not deny Hybris is good. I only try to highlight, WCEM is also a brilliant solution and the fact, that Hybris can be most likely only considered within a 360 SAP integration scenario  after SAP integration is done - right now, it is not. Your argumentation to demolish the WCEM as good solution is based on wrong assumptions; driven possibly by  frustration after being confronted by the complexity of a real enterprise application like ERP, CRM,... and different technologies - we all did had this experience in our first year, but this does not make the solution bad.

And no, my business is not depending on WCEM and build on such solution - you should take a closer look. We are doing the SAP Web-Channel and hence enable / integrate web or e- capabilities for business processes in SAP - that's why i also dealt before with Magento and Hybris. The result of the SAP Integration to Hybris will be the new flagship of the SAP Web-Channel products. Anyway, please keep any company out of the discussion - this is the absolute wrong channel to promote business. So if i am writing here, then it is only about my expression about what is best for the SAP Web-Channel users and not about any personal interests.

Btw. I am technical 

Daniel Ruiz wrote:
Hybris and WCEM are not on the same ballpark, Hybris is far superior in every single design aspect as far I analysed.

Which design you are addressing? The Service-orientated argumentation did failed. All of the "design elements" you pointed out so far, can be found within WCEM as well. I can only see so far, that you pointed out that Hybris is using a few different technologies e.g. Spring. But for every technology Hybris is using, SAP is using something similar e.g. the SAP BO-Layer. The question is actually, which technology has more or less advantages - as i explained before, I like the source code generation/injection functionality, that Spring is offering for the beans.

Speaking of actual design. A design also consideres aspects of being able to manage code changes, being able to patch and upgrade software, providing SAP support etc. something that works within SAP perfect, but i haven't seen anything so far at Hybris that comes close to what SAP can offer with DC's, Namespaces, Modules, etc.. Modules can be equal to Hybris extensions, but SAP has done the seperation of functionalities far more granulated.  

ECC/CRM were never developed to be open for consumption of third-party system, thus leading peeps like you to believe it's *too hard* to integrate systems.

Sorry, you are absolutely wrong. Especially for ERP & CRM systems SAP is providing endless options... a enterprise system is the heart of any company and in any company you will find endless systems & applications of third parties, which are connected to SAP. SAP could shutdown their business, if it would not be not easy & possible to integrate third party system. Give me please a actual example, where this would not work out for you?

"I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives."

Leo Tolstoy is already dead since more as 100 years and no SAP expert, so I will leave this conclusion to the other technical & functional SAP experts here, who have used the technology - I can only repeat myself, Hybris is good and I am looking forward to implement it more often in the future, but it will be for the real SAP 360 integrated scenario behind SAP WCEM until the official SAP Hybris integration release has taken place.

[daniel_ruiz2]

dear lord..

[Former Member]

From integration guide, SAP Best Practice Hybris E-Commerce with Lean Integration into SAP ERP, the order will be sent to FTP server via csv file the SAP PI will be used to load it to ECC regulary.  So this isn't RFC online transaction and asynchrous.  What kind of refresh time can we set to meet the ATP check?

[sam_bayer]

This message was moderated.

[ingo_woesner]

Hello Sam,

I'm sorry to tell you that I had to delete your former entry in this blog as you misused the SCN to promote your own product on the sake of WCEM and Hybris.

I am open for all discussions, but this was inapproriate.

SAP intends to acquire Hybris, it's not the acquisition itself. Many things can happen on the way until the acqusition is closed.

You are right with many things though. The acquisition, in case it goes through, will definitely impact the WCEM roadmap, especially on B2C scenarios - no question about that. And then there will be an even deeper integration of Hybris in SAP backends.

But you are wrong with your statement that WCEM is a "zombie" product.

I can't judge how good the Hybris integration into SAP is - they have several SAP customers in the B2C space and also even some in B2B where the integration is deeper, so I guess (I simply don't know) their integration into SAP backends is at least OK if not better.

However, WCEM 3.0 is a very good SAP product, with advanced B2B features and great integration in Retail based store processes, and is clearly designed for Multi/Omni Channel.

Not to mention the deep integration in the SAP backends ERP and CRM, the pixel perfect UI using the latest web standards and open UI technology.

Even if we consider the Hybris deal will go through there is a roadmap for WCEM 3.0. So WCEM is far away from being a "zombie" product as you have called it.

Best regards,

Ingo Woesner

Multi Channel Product Management

SAP AG

[former_member223302]

Hi Ingo,

SCN is open, I guess to various comments and deleting what one or the other says is not a good practice. I don't get what was so inappropriate. Of course, it was advertising but he's free to do it.You just did that as well by the way:

"However, WCEM 3.0 is a very good SAP product, with advanced B2B features and great integration in Retail based store processes, and is clearly designed for Multi/Omni Channel.

Not to mention the deep integration in the SAP backends ERP and CRM, the pixel perfect UI using the latest web standards and open UI technology."

For instance if one wants now to check Sam comment and your reaction do you think it's fair not being able to see this on the thread?

Let's be a little less sensitive and give people more freedom.

With kind regards,

[Former Member]

Hello Sam,

Ingo was faster as I did, but i nevertheless like to state that a implementation time within less as 30 days is absolutely possible - this is called RDS implementation. But even with other solutions, you can implement invoiceing within less as 30 days. For best-practice implementation, it's even possible to do it within 15 days - guaranteed.

I actually like to know, what leads to to make such statement?

Unfortunately for SAP clients who voted for WCEM, they are now stuck with a dead end solution.

Why do you think SAP will stop developing WCEM, which is within the SAP context far ahead of Hybris? This solution is within the last few month positioned at more SAP clients as Hybris does manage to do in their whole existance. It has it's advantages in specific areas, but is definetely not worth as replacement. There are clients, who are very unhappy with Hybris because of the lack of integration.

You are pointing out the advantages of the user-experience & centralized maintainance view that you have within Hybri's PCM, but it's counterpart is not WCEM. This is more going in the direction of the MDM system, whose integration to WCEM is 100% replaceable. SAP already use this replaceable layer to offer  Trex and CatMan integration. So it actually is not dead end, it's open end with a promissing future. Clients did request more capabilities for the retail b2C market and now SAP is going to address it.

Hybris helps SAP to address also new client groups, which are not (yet) interested in SAP backends and the full 360 Degree package. Non-SAP clients, who still want to use their own ERP. A big market, that was yet not available with WCEM. It's not about losing the existing clients, because the reason or their commitment for WCEM is and will be still valid, because SAP WCEM is in the SAP context and  most cases the best choice..

Regards

[ingo_woesner]

Hi Elena,

I welcome an open and controversial discussion but using SCN for promoting it's own product for the sake of existing products while telling his ideas/thoughts as facts is far from appropriate.

Ingo

[sam_bayer]

Thanks for your support Elena and your observations about Ingo's comments. 

First of all, I did not "promote" my products...or at least, I didn't do it any more than Ingo promotes his :-).

I responded with my opinions and knowledge in the industry about the fate of WCEM in light of the hybris announcement.  I guess opinions other than those that promote SAP agendas are frowned upon.

This really isn't an open forum for discussions.

I wonder if this post will be deleted as well???

Sam

[sam_bayer]

Ingo,

With all due respect, do you seriously think the hybris acquisition won't go through? The press has been all over the announcement and offering many great reasons for the deal from: responding to competitive threats in the market, to accelerating the market penetration that WCEM couldn't achieve, to providing another real target for Hana and the cloud etc. Besides, a commitment of >$1B in cash is not to be taken lightly.

When this deal goes through, WCEM is going to have to find a "niche" area if it's going to stay alive. But then again, if WCEM remains alive, I don't envy the salesperson that has to differentiate between the two offerings. Especially because you know SAP is going to spend an AWFUL lot of money integrating hybris into its core ERP/CRM suite.

That's why I say Zombie. WCEM is now amongst the living dead. Sure further investments will be made because marquis SAP clients bought into it and SAP has to save face with them. But in the B2C space, hybris wins.

My contention is that SAP...as a company...is still lacking a good B2B solution. But if I mentioned my company has one, that would be promoting my company which would force you to delete this post as well...which I don't want to have happen.

So, I'll just leave it at that.

hybris wins. WCEM loses. SAP still doesn't have an affordable B2B ecommerce solution.

Sam

Comment was moderated to remove link violating rules of engagement (https://community.sap.com/resources/rules-of-engagement). These rules forbid "[c]ontent or comments primarily designed to drive traffic to, increase the search rankings of, generating revenue from, or gain any other personal benefit from a non-SAP site, product, or service."

[sam_bayer]

Hi Andreas,

Please see my reply to Ingo for the answer to why I think WCEM is a dead end solution.  You do, however, raise a very interesting point about the hybris acquisition producing leads to upgrade to SAP ERP.  I hadn't thought of that.

As far as going live in 15 days guaranteed is concerned, I sincerely doubt that since I have never met an SAP shop that can get anything done in 15 days.  It usually takes that long just to get VPN access to the SAP landscape.

Sam

[ingo_woesner]

Hi Sam,

that's your opinion.

My opinion is that SAP has an affordable B2B solution. It's WCEM.

Ingo

[VishnAndr]

Hello, Elena.

I'd like to draw your and other participants attention to . In particular, section "Good Community Netiquette and Behavior" item 5. Thank you.

[Former Member]

Hello Sam,

i think SAP would welcome that Hybris customers switch offer to SAP ERP ... but actually, this is not the point. There are customers, who do not want to go the full 360-degree path - that's for the small players heavy stuff!

Sam Bayer wrote:
But in the B2C space, hybris wins.

Hybris is ahead in some asspects , but i would not declare them anyhow as the almighty winner - there cannot be the one and only winner, because both solution are within a completely different context strong. You need to ask the Hybris clients, who decided to go away from this solution as well (B2B as well as B2C). The existance of both solutions can be justified depending on the context, Hybris for non-sap B2C Retailers and WCEM for SAP clients. It looks like they competing each other directly first, but actually if you take a closer look it feels like the complete each others disadvantages.

Sam Bayer wrote:
When this deal goes through, WCEM is going to have to find a "niche" area if it's going to stay alive. 

Why? SAP's Web-Channel is far more successfully so far as Hybris. This does not change, just because people just discovered that there is another solution that SAP sees interesting enought to buy.

Sam Bayer wrote:
My contention is that SAP...as a company...is still lacking a good B2B solution. 

What are you missing for the B2B area? WCEM actually is pretty strong within the B2B context and with Ariba also offering another kind of B2B.

[former_member223302]

Thank you so much for the link!

Actually, the rules show that there are no Grounds for Rejection of Posts ...

Have you reached that point?

Regarding advertising: you might not have noticed I did not advertise anything, so I guess it was a small mistake you did when starting with "Hello Elena"

But again, I would like to thank you for pointing out the section "Grounds for Rejecting  Posts...".It is cristal clear to me now that this was not : point-cheating, defaming another(! it's about persons) or copyright.

[sam_bayer]

Hi Ingo,

Let's try not to end this discussion with mere opinions.  Let's try and insert some facts.  In the US, SAP is trying to sell an all inclusive pre-configured All-in-One solution to certain verticals.  Manufacturing and Distribution/Wholesale are two of the targeted areas.  For small companies in this target market ($10M -$500M turnover) they are offering this solution for about $350K including the services to implement in 90 days.  This is for ALL SAP modules including SD, FI, MM etc.

If one of these small manufacturers wanted to implement WCEM for their B2B customers and salespeople, what would it cost them to do so? 

In addition, these organizations usually have 2-3 people in the IT staff to manage the entire functional and technical stack.

I look forward to your answer.

Sam

[Former Member]

Hello Sam,

i think this question is a bit generic and might be misleading, if Ingo is just pushing a number on the table as every client is a unique case. Before that, let's talk about the decision factors

What kind of costs / budget range the client should actually have  here to enable B2B?

Another question. What kind of scope you actually like to see in relationship to this to be "wished" costs / budget range - just the order management, catalog (with or without media content), dynamic pricing, marketing, loyality management, cross/up/down sales, content management, real time availability & rough stock indicator (ATP / APO), i think there are a couple of hundreds variables we have, so it will be easier if you define the scope.

I am really like to know, if you can share us your personal expections for the to be expected implementation costs before any number is shared with you - that i really like to see Ingo's number thereafter in comparision.

Regards,

Andreas

[sam_bayer]

Hi Andreas,

Fair enough.  Let's get more specific.  We can approach this from two perspectives.  What percentage of that $350K cost should be allocated to a B2B website?  Remember that for $350K the client runs their entire business.  Order to Cash. 

First of all, I can tell your perspective isn't really a B2B perspective because of the words "marketing, loyalty management, cross/up/down sales, content management". 

None of the purely B2B clients that I've worked with care about any of that in the first phases of their projects.  In fact, 3 out of 4 of our most recent clients are going into production without catalogs.  What they all want is for the website to manage the entire Order Management lifecycle.  That includes real time availability, dynamic pricing, real time order placement, delivery status, document reprints (order confirmation, bill of lading, invoices etc.).  Those scenarios are for customers as well as a salesforce (accessing multiple soldto/shipto).  Providing visibility into open items and be able to pay invoices online as well.

I think customers would like to be able to get into production for less than $50K and pay no more than $60K per year for up to 1000 users.

Can WCEM deliver that?

Sam

[Former Member]

I think customers would like to be able to get into production for less than $50K and pay no more than $60K per year for up to 1000 users.
Can WCEM deliver that?

Hi Sam,

from my experience I dare to reckon that for less than $50K you're definitely not going to look at a hybris solution. Maybe that's what the concept will cost you, but not the implementation.

Best regards,

Stefan

[Former Member]

Hi,

Sam Bayer wrote:
First of all, I can tell your perspective isn't really a B2B perspective because of the words "marketing, loyalty management, cross/up/down sales, content management". 

thank you Sam -

i know Loyality Management is not a classic B2B functionality as well as Cross / Down Sales... but that's why I am asking in front. There are clients, who just need a basket and nothing else. But on the other hand even the B2B has developed ahead and there are customers, who are not far awy from B2C-like approaches; it's a new world, different rules. WCEM is giving you this opportuntity to choose from a set of features your business needs, and not forcing you to stick within the frames because someone told you B2B is only order management - You actually will be surprised as I even have clients  within the "Manufacturing and Distribution/Wholesale" today who use features like recommendations, cross, up and down sales for B2B to sell goods to their local independent shops. Would you like to tell the, no that's not B2B you have to stop doing that?

No solution should define how you must drive your business - it's about giving you the flexibility to choose and differenciated yourself with your unique sales methologiy from others. Is that not, how every successful company started once - with a unique idea? WCEM gives you this freedom doing even the strangest combinations.

None of the purely B2B clients that I've worked with care about any of that in the first phases of their projects.  In fact, 3 out of 4 of our most recent clients are going into production without catalogs. 

This is correct, because not everyone does need it. But how about, if you want to combine the order functionality with E-Services? How about skipping order management and saying, i only want the catalog and E-Service, or just the catalog.

I know your solution and as of your situation, most of the potential clients with catalog requirements who looked into your solution would probably directly drop out before become a actual client. That's the same reason why > 60% of Hybris are Retail clients and at least 80% of them  do not even use SAP. The remaining 20% mostly do not even have a SAP integration, that is going beyond sending the orders to the ERP; the absolute mininum you have to do as of the massive amount of custom development involved. This does not mean, that because > 60% of Hybris's clients is interested  in B2C Retail  (2 of 3) , nobody needs B2B or necessarly avoids SAP.

It's also not about the 3 of 4, where SAP does really good. It's about the 1, that SAP has not yet addressed and likes to get on board as well - it's about covering all areas and have for all situations the correct product in place.

I think customers would like to be able to get into production for less than $50K and pay no more than $60K per year for up to 1000 users.
Can WCEM deliver that?

Have a look at the RDS solution, i justs costs 56K. Fully working Web-Shop, not just the basket! If you just down-size it do the basket, i even think you can expect just a share of the normal 56K costs, because within few clicks everything works instantly. You do not even have to install the Trex, no IPC, nothing. Just the classic backend-basket enabled - Done. No duplication of code, no custom code in the backend and every other SAP solution like BI , WebUI, etc does handle the data in parallel.... I am sure that you solution can do that, but can you simply press a few a buttons and enable more and more feature because your business does develop into a diffrent direction - that's how business life is, it changes from one day to the next and you need to adjust quickly! That's one reason why I like  SAP's new fresh approach with the SAP Web-Channel and the continuation to further grow it to a better solution as it already is!

So why should it is not effortable and why this is not a good B2B solution? I am unable to see your point.  Beside catalog it can handle contracts, service contracts, order history, complains, returns, information requests, product registrations, handling of warranties, user administration (for own company), downloads of transaction related documents as PDF e.g. order confirmation, and a couple of more pages of those features ....

Back to the Hybris subject and how it will influce SAP's Web-Channel to improve

[daniel_ruiz2]

@ Ingo:

"Even if we consider the Hybris deal will go through there is a roadmap for WCEM 3.0."

Someone from SAP replied a topic that there would be no roadmap announcements until the end of the acquisition process, and now I see your reply and I'm confused. Would you mind answering me here or private message or email or any way you see fit... Where can I find this roadmap?

I mention that because "historically", we know what happens when this sort of acquisition takes place.. And I will not question it, but I would love to have something positive to say about WCEM and a roadmap would be exactly what I'm looking for... I would also suggest adding the roadmap into the Wiki because it should be there.

@ The Topic:

I personally think people can be as naive as they want to be - and to imagine SAP is acquiring Hybris to 'enhance' WCEM solution looks a bit 'unrealistic' to me. Having said that, I would like to point out some facts:

- WCEM uses JSF, and even with the custom enhancements it's possible to 'extract' a lot of a custom developed code; and I would even dare to say it's possible to push the JSF/Velocity into Hybris directly which wouldn't be bad at all;

- The "Business Layer" of WCEM has some dependencies that IMO should never have existed in the first place: however, it's still quite 'possible' to extract a lot of the current code and use in the Hybris "Service Layer" and deal with the Back-End Layer in a MUCH, MUCH better way than WCEM current deals;

- GAP would be Shopping Cart and Catalogue; whereas Catalogue it seems Hybris will have it cover and add a lot of benefit over MDM, and Shopping Cart.. well, I guess there is homework there and hopefully SAP will do it right this time;

Lets face it, it's not the end of the world and the news itself " IS A GOOD THING " - and to be honest, the main point of concern is how we drive this change trying to minimize impact on our current customers or advise future customers what to be careful with.

Also, I would like to point out that Hybris being independent will bring a nice dynamic here and not many people is taking time to think what that really means.

D.

PS: I'm a bit troubled to know that a Moderator who actually took part on the discussion keep his powers to moderate that same discussion.. I don't think this is right, no matter if rules have been broken. Moderators should be free to participate and engage in discussions, but they lose Moderation powers over that thread as soon they 'join' the discussion.

[ingo_woesner]

Hello Daniel,

I am in WCEM Product Management and responsible for the product related rollout. In addition I took over the moderator role for this community, so my postings here are not made as moderator but as product manager.

As planned Support Package 01 of WCEM 3.0 will be shipped with additional functionality at the end of June for a limited set of customers for validation (no rampup). SP01 will include ODATA web services and a framework to extend and build new web services. This e.g. allows to easily develop mobile applications and/or use the WCEM platform to access the backend systems for customer specific applications inside and outside the pure E-Commerce space.

The global shipment date of SP01 is depending on the validation results.

Without surprise SAP's overall E-Business Roadmap is to become a strong player in B2C and maintain it's strong position in B2B. The planned acquisition is a major step in this direction. This is in alignment with SAP's Multi Channel strategy.

Best regards,

Ingo

[sam_bayer]

+1

PS: I'm a bit troubled to know that a Moderator who actually took part on the discussion keep his powers to moderate that same discussion.. I don't think this is right, no matter if rules have been broken. Moderators should be free to participate and engage in discussions, but they lose Moderation powers over that thread as soon they 'join' the discussion.

[sam_bayer]

Hi Andreas,

Andreas Halbig wrote:

I know your solution and as of your situation, most of the potential clients with catalog requirements who looked into your solution would probably directly drop out before become a actual client.

Evidently you don't know our solution very well at all.

I invite you to visit [mod note: link broken, violates rules, was removed] website. They are an example of just one of the many of our growing number of SAP clients who want to have a more "B2C" experience for their "B2B" clients.

They've solved the problem in a "best of breed" hybrid fashion.

They've picked the #1 open source eCommerce platform in the industry, Magento, for their catalog and user experience. They've picked the #1 ERP vendor in the market, SAP, to manage all of their business rules, processes and data. And they've decided to integrate the two with a cloud based service.

Trust me, there are alternatives in the SAP integrated B2B ecommerce marketplace to the high priced, complex, "consultant friendly", on premise solutions that you are familiar with and promote. And there are a growing number of small to midsize manufacturers that are demanding them.

Lastly, I don't think anyone in this forum believes your $56K cost estimate to implement WCEM.

Sam

Comment was moderated to remove link violating rules of engagement (https://community.sap.com/resources/rules-of-engagement). These rules forbid "[c]ontent or comments primarily designed to drive traffic to, increase the search rankings of, generating revenue from, or gain any other personal benefit from a non-SAP site, product, or service."

[daniel_ruiz2]

Hi Ingo,

Thanks for you answer. Is this response what you call 'roadmap' or is there any sort of document, hyperlink, wiki page etc.. containing the information in a more polished form, that I could in fact use?

A reference to this topic here will be of little use, even thou you are stating such in here.. there is too much deviation. In fact, if you copy and paste the exact same text you used here into a wiki entry tthat people could use as reference would be really nice.

D.

[Former Member]

Sam Bayer wrote:
Trust me, there are alternatives

Sam, i never said there is no alternative? And i never said, that you cannot successfully implement e-commerce without SAP. I only said, that it is very unlikely that you have a full integration to sap that goes beyond the basics with solutions like Hybris and Co - they all required custom coding. I know Magendo, i know Hybris and some other solutions - please listen closely what I tried to communicate before: There are different decision factors involved for people, who have choosen SAP's and Non-SAP solutions - you can not make a one to one comparision, hence you cannot simply replace WCEM - it's good that you have the choice to decide.

Sam Bayer wrote:
Evidently you don't know our solution very well at all. 

Can Magendo do catalog management or does your solution do it? You did say, because 3 of 4 of your clients do not need catalog features, that's because it also applies to SAP .... somehow its like comparing apples and oranges.

Btw. With 3 different solutions, you need at least 3 different kind of skillsets - especially as as I remember non of the solutions share the same technology. If the client does not want to outsource it to service providers, then he needs to get more people to cover the skills  => more costs.

Sam Bayer wrote:
high priced

Did we not figure out that SAP is cheaper as you estimated for a to-be case? Even can be delivered faster as you hoped a solution implementation should take? Evidently you don't know SAP's solution and the cost factors there, you just make a assumption that SAP always = expensive.

Sam Bayer wrote:
Lastly, I don't think anyone in this forum believes your 56K cost estimate to implement WCEM.

For some reason somebody even wrote this number into the official training material of SAP and customers are all aware about it. Strange that i would do this RDS instantly for 56K as fixed price Must be  not really smart of me if you consider, that this is binding as it is a fixed price for such packaged service - as i said, this is for the full set and not just the very easy element for the order management. Btw. i can even make it run in the cloud for such price - not on-premise (customer can choose).

The problem of many people and this news is, that they try to make assumption based on seeing a small overlapping part whilst they far far bigger share is absolutely different. What happens today is, that SAP annouched for his Porsche that it gets a new set of Tires for the next season. It's not replacing the the whole car, just a new spare parts of tires. Now peole are using this news to say, i this car must get unfortunately crushed and buying the  beatle (car) will serve his needs as well - because it is a  car. The owner  will just smile and go away

Don't get me wrong, nobody is saying other  solutions then SAPs are bad for their specific  use case. I think Hybris has it's advantages and it will give us the chance to replace some specific elements, where Hybris was doing better - again, this does not mean, SAP has elements where Hybris is behind as well.

[ingo_woesner]

Hi Daniel,

you ask for the impossible. The deal is not yet closed, and there is no offcial roadmap on glossy paper, only  (hopefully) a outdated one which doesn't serve.

For an official one we have to wait until the legal stuff is done.

Best regards,

Ingo

[Former Member]

Hi Daniel,

good to see that discussion in here is still alive. I agree with you on the fact that an official SAP road map is needed. I just read through the short Gartner report from June 12th and especially the recommendations section got me thinking:

SAP Acquisition of Hybris Brings E-Commerce and MDM Decisions | 2514516

Best regards,

Stefan

[daniel_ruiz2]

Hi Ingo,

I'm not too sure if I'm being clear.. it seemed for a while that I was, but your last response confuses me again.

All I'm 'asking' is a WCEM roadmap - and while you mentioned what's next with the SP1 of WCEM 3.0, this thread is not a good 'hyperlink' for me to use (it has your statement which counts a lot but also a lot of cross-side talk) - and please note, IMO knowing where WCEM is going will tell me a lot of information to work with already on WCEM side while whatever happens with Hybris takes place: WCEM is what exists now and that's what I'm concerned in a VERY short term vision.

I honestly cannot see any other person more fit than you to position WCEM or discuss the roadmap.. Does that exists now? - I tried to look into the Wiki and I couldn't find, neither on Service Marketplace..

And it's really this simple: " oh, this is what we have planned for WCEM, some predicted dates, functionality... just a roadmap... "

Cheers,

D.

[daniel_ruiz2]

Hi Stephan,

I have not seen this hyperlink before, so thanks for sharing. While Gartner says ' push SAP to disclose plans about WCEM and Hybris ' - I don't agree in full with this statement, thou I would also love to hear the plans. (and of course there are plans otherwise there would be no acquisition)

I'm more concerning of rectifying the commitment of SAP with WCEM (thus a roadmap is already sufficient) and I wouldn't expect SAP to disclose what they want with Hybris because SAP will never be this transparent: nevertheless, at this moment SAP has no good reason to not commit with WCEM "unless" there is something already set, which is what I would like to understand better.

A roadmap is very usual and I would see no reason for such not to exist.. (despite the obvious reason, there is no roadmap because we are lost in the sea right now with this acquisition)

Cheers,
D.

[Former Member]

Dear Ingo,

Now that it has been 3 months since your last post, would it be possible for you now, to throw some light on the roadmap for WCEM?

Thanks and awaiting to hear from you.

Pradeep

[ingo_woesner]

Dear community members,

we are currently preparing an official announcement, which I expect in the next week.

Please stay tuned for updates.

Best regards,

Ingo Woesner

Product Management Multi Channel

SAP AG

[Former Member]

Hello, Ingo Woesner.

Where we can read an official announcement about WCEM and Hybris?

Regards,

Denis Khveshchenik.

[ingo_woesner]

Hello community members,

I have just learned that a letter has been sent to WCEM customers to inform them about hybris.

Besides the direct letters there is no public announcement planned.

As SAP customer or partner please ask your SAP account executive or partner manager for details.

Best regards,

Ingo

[Former Member]

Hi to everyone,

We are currently investigating which decision to make about an e-commerce solution for our B2C scenario. We adquired SAP Web Channel/ISA and were evaluating to go for WCEM but these Hybris adquisition news are giving us second thoughts. Others are proposing to go for Magento. Any lights you could give me about WCEM's or Hybris' future?

Our solution is based con SAP CRM 7.0 and SAP ERP R/3 and our main focus is the B2C scenario. Mobile and social networks integration are a must in our short-term plans.

Best regards,

Alejandro

[sam_bayer]

Hi Alejandro,

If you listen to the people on this thread who have a vested interest in WCEM, they will tell you that you should have no problem moving forward with WCEM.  If you listen to Forrester Research, they will tell you that WCEM is dead and the only viable solution to invest in from SAP is now hybris. 

I believe that just like SAP's recent announcements about Business by Design (BBD), they will not abandon anyone on the WCEM platform (or BBD), but don't expect to have much a future with it.  hybris is clearly where the vast majority of SAP's eCommerce investments will be.

With that said, the Magento platform is turning out to be a real winning combination.  Especially in the B2C case where integration with either SAP ERP or CRM is very "light".  As a standalone platform it competes very well with hybris at a fraction of the cost.  And I truly mean a fraction of the cost when you're all done with the software licensing and consulting costs to make the "hybris framework" as Forrester refers to it, work for you in your organization.  (This is even more true if you ever want to roll out a B2B website that is integrated with SAP).

In the end, it really depends on the culture of your organization.

If you want to make the "safe" decision, and are willing to pay a premium for it, than SAP hybris is the way to go. 

If you're sentimental and want to support all of the consultants who have now wasted their time and money in building  expertise in a dying market, than go ahead and invest in WCEM. 

However, if you want to get the job done, and have some money left over for other projects,  than take a very serious look at Magento.  It is getting the job done for a growing number of SAP Manufacturers and Retailers (I'd be happy to put you in touch with them).  And Magento's rapidly growing open source user base pretty much guarantees that it won't suffer the same fate as WCEM.

Good luck to you.

Sam

[ingo_woesner]

Hi Alejandro,

hybris is clearly SAP's strategic way to go forward.

WCEM still has it's advantages when it comes to a strong integration of B2B processes, at least for the time being until SAP has integrated hybris.

But for B2C, hybris is the recommended option.

I can't comment on the Magento solution proposed by Sam for obvious reasons.

Best regards,

Ingo

[Former Member]

Hi Alexandro,

it does not make sense telling you straightaway what is for your situation the best decision. This completely depends on the business situation. There are third parties using the opportunity promoting other solutions then SAP, but those have their disadvantages as well and very few SAP clients have decided to go this way before for good reasons... and if i say SAP, then I mean a client who is actual looking into a fully integrated integration to their SAP environment... Not those easygoing clients, who have in one corner SAP and in another any e-commerce solution running [almost] independent from each other.

Hybris will be definitely the ultimate solution for non-SAP and for the future also for SAP clients, but a few more days have to pass by until this actually will be the case. For the moment Hybris has still the same disadvantages in place, as decision makers faced few month ago. Right now, SAP WCEM is still the ultimate solution available for those SAP clients looking for the full integration, it's faster and cheaper implemented compared to Hybris including far lower risk of having underestimated situations... unfortunately, we already know that this product has a end-date. 

There are clients who have stopped or paused the acquisition of WCEM as they don't mind, but others still continue with good reasons. Others even still implement the older solution ISA/WCE. Some are in the position to simply wait a few more month, others are aware that after 2 years you anyway start looking into a replacement / upgrade - no reason to stop the business. Therefore i am not able to tell you, what is right now the best for you. There are good reasons for deciding against and pro WCEM/WEC as solution even today - you have to decide which arguments are more relevant for you. One advantage definitely WCEM will give you as Hybris is now a SAP product: rather then loosing, you very likely will be able to leverage your investments into e-commerce business processes by switching someday to the newer solution once it brings what you need... something you definitely won't have so easy if you use e.g. Magendo - hence SAP's Web-Channel today is definitely not a waste of time, but don't get me wrong, this does not exclude that other solutions can  also have their advantages.

Right now we are in the classic situation like being able buy the coolest available Ultra-HD LED TV or Laptop, but already know that is a even cooler/faster/better technology coming using e.g UHD OLED. Which decision you will make?

[sam_bayer]

Andreas Halbig wrote:
you very likely will be able to leverage your investments into e-commerce business processes by switching someday to the newer solution once it brings what you need... something you definitely won't have so easy if you use e.g. Magendo -

With all due respect Andreas, I would like to disagree with your comment that an investment today in Magento will not allow you to easily switch to a newer solution down the road.  We now have several years of experience implementing Magento in both B2B and B2C scenarios and I can tell you that the majority of our client's efforts are in cleaning up their core SAP implementations.  Making sure that their Customer and Material Master is configured correctly and has clean data.  Cleaning up user exits so that they work the same whether they are called from a web service or from SAPGUI.  That is certainly not throw away work for the SAP client who truly wants an Omnichannel commerce solution down the road.

I admire the tenacity with which you cling to a sinking ship.  But your final LED/Laptop analogy simply doesn't work.  eCommerce platforms aren't disposable technologies.  They form the core of an organization's "operating system".  Organizations don't like to change operating systems too often.

Lastly, you really ought to spend more time educating yourself on the Magento solution.  The Order Management integration that we provide to SAP is in the same category of integration as the WCEM solution.  Quite impressive actually.  No duplication of data or business rules.  We rely on SAP 100% and access it in real time as required.

Where you and I both agree is that the hybris solution has a very long way to go to approach the level of integration with SAP that either WCEM enjoys or we bring to the Magento solution.  Unless of course they choose to OEM the b2b2dot0 solution.  Hmmm.  Maybe that's an idea worth pursuing :-).

Sam

[Former Member]

Sam,

you again promote your business and I you seriously don't hope you try to compare your  walnut boat with SAP's (former) flagship - don't get me wrong, i am not saying your solution is bad. We had this dicussion long time ago and you cannot seriously compare your solution, which is not more or less then a   order basket.  Such  basket functionality can be integrate  to Hybris and any other solution very easily, one possibility is to  simply copy and paste the ISA or WCEM modules including some minor adjustments and done - you are talking about basic central  master data, i am talking about a far bigger possibility to leverage investments for interfaces, business processes and more. 

You always alarmist argue against SAP with the forester report, but where is Magento here? If WCEM is sinking as you say, then Magendo is already on the ocean ground. I simply see not the logic in your words, why Magendo or any other solution becomes now better when SAP's Web-Channel develops further. 

I do also not get, why you continuously talking so bad about SAP Web-Channel in favor of your own, without having any real implementation expertise for such SAP product? I see no real argumentation from your site,  beside pointing as CEO with the stinky finger on your technology partner, which you claim to be SAP. Why do you think SAP is throwing away all the hard work, after WCEM is a combination of re-useable desgined components? Those components can and are already used in more products as just WCEM. If SAP is choosing taking advantage of that or not, is not known.

And again, WCEM is a very good product - just because the focus has fallen on Hybris, does not change that fact. And no, i do not think it is sinking, it is continuing it's success with(in) Hybris on the long term - people only have to find the right timing for switching to Hybris. Same as it was when we had to switch from ISA to WCEM (which by the way also alloweded to re-use or migrate previous work easly). - but also here a reminder, no solution suits all scenarios perfect and hence there are always customers who will go today and in the future for other solutions as SAP.... i guess this will be  less in the future as of  increasing functionality and usage scenarios.

[ingo_woesner]

Hi Sam and Andreas,

I think we are talking apples and oranges here.

Magento and your own solution you are trying so hard to promote here might be a quickly way to set up a simple B2B catalog/basket web shop scenario.

But for complex B2B scenarios, according to The Forrester Wave™: B2B Commerce Suites, Q4 2013 (*) Magento is not capable and hence not considered in their report.

I am not allowed to publish Forrester's findings here, but check their report on page 9, chapter "Vendor Selection Criteria".

This might be the reason why some large global companies have recently decided to switch from Magento to hybris.

I am looking for any Magento consideration with Gartner and post it here as well.

Regards,

Ingo

[daniel_ruiz2]

Hi Andreas , Ingo

I find amusing how you folks think you can back talk a product or solution when in fact you can't even spell its name.

Future customers using SAP, I reckon there is one path: Hybris. You kinda have to be a bit insane to go WCEM after

the SAP announcement: when WCEM was SAP focus it was last, now it's not even focus anymore....

About implementation details, you all seem to brag WCEM is integrated as if this was a good thing: hook up a jMeter

in WCEM and watch the pathetic through output of requests per second. Reason? ABAP and a problematic codebase.

How can you claim WCEM is even on the same page as well built software like Hybris or ATG? - I will refrain of talking

about Magento simply because I have no experience (never saw the code) so I just cannot analyse.

IMO, wanna tell others WCEM is great and Order Management is great? - well, I would suggest spending more time fixing

not only WCEM who inherited most flaws from ISA but also make sure if WCEM calls a function module this function module will not have 50 parameters, 4000 lines calling more 4000 function modules inside with ZERO object orientation.

@ Topic: Hybris as far I'm aware will stay outside SAP grasp and that's good because they will keep the software clean. As

per SAP Integration, I would expect SAP fail boat of function modules simply because they will mostly copy ISA code once more, but it's early to say.

Cheers,

D.

[VishnAndr]

Hello, Stefan.

Very nice start on SCN!! I also noticed the news about the acquisition. I'm not an expert on e-Commerce (yet), but it is interesting to see what will be the result of it. At least statements on the hybris' web-site are very sonorous: "Named a leader by Gartner in the Magic Quadrant for E-Commerce", "Ranked by Forrester as a Leader among top B2C Commerce Suites" and so on.

It'd be interesting to hear on the topic from - an old fan of e-Commerce from SAP